Area 51 Nevada (not the game)

[Senses Fail]

Do you think the supposedly "UFO" crash in aztec new mexico in the 1940's was a real UFO? Heres the story : Residents say they saw 14 humanoid creatures dead in the craft. Once this happened the government rushed down to the crash site and gathered everything. The government people did all they can to TRY and dent the space craft which was supposedly a UFO. When the government officials hacked bats and shot at the UFO with guns, it would not get dented. Also when looked at the UFO's exterrior had no signs of welding or bolts to show how it was put together. Later on the government crew jabbed a large long pole into a slot that was seen on the UFO, once the pole was jabbed in the air craft revealed a large door coming downwards. 14 DEAD humanoid looking things were found. If you ask the question "Do you believe it was a real ufo crash and alien sighting?" One of the residents answer "If nothing happened, why did the government flood the area and block it off?" Area 51 states that the crashed UFO was actually a testing craft and the 14 humanoid things were actually dummies to test parachutes. Now you can say that area 51 will deny all things and maybe this wasnt a little project like the area 51 said but a REAL UFO CRASH. Whats your opinions?

[DragonacheKing99]

I don't believe in any of this, its all pretty weird and sketchy

What I have heard from a show is there is some sort of government either aircraft or missile (something like that) testing site nearby there. A lot of the new aircraft could look different then what others have seen so they think its a UFO. Also the government might want to block it off because it has new technology or it could be dangerous or something like that. This is probably the best and most plausible explanation I've heard

[Ryan44]

Do I think the supposedly "UFO" crash in [Roswell], New Mexico in the 1940's was a real UFO?

In a word: No.

I agree with DK99 in the lack of plausibility for this Area 51 "cover-up." Government testing of new weapon and avionics programs sounds more realistic. Still, it seems that some let their imaginations run wild.

Don’t forget the fallacy of ignorance (http://www.iep.utm.edu/f/fallacy.htm#Appeal to Ignorance): Just because something can’t be disproved, doesn’t mean it’s true. Taken thusly, some UFO experts (and other experts on other conspiracies) may search endlessly for proof because of particulars that sound “weird” and information that isn‘t complete. How someone can reason that odd evidence and incomplete data by itself constitutes a government conspiracy to hide a UFO crash and alien bodies is beyond me. That “If A then B” syllogism still needs a lot of sketching out before the Area 51 “cover-up” becomes even a respectable argument.)

If you respect logic and empirical evidence and real science, you won't suffer this UFO nonsense for a few seconds. Personally, the Area 51 conspiracy is as likely to be true as the 9/11 and JFK conspiracies.

This isn't my opinion, but the truth -- unless you're saying that we live on two different alternate universes where things can be both true and false at the same time (which violates a basic law of logic).

In addition, what, pray, proof or evidence is there for the Area 51 conspiracy from "real", independent sources, not crackpot "scientists" or so-called "UFOoligists"?

Next thing you know, the “Chariot of the Gods” and the alien astronaut theories will enter the mix (that humans are the offspring of alien colonists who mated with early humanoids). Where does this madness end?

I say just drop the view that “you know something the government doesn’t want you to know” and focus on far-more important matters such as [I]reality.

[SD rulez]

I believe this. apparantly there is about a 10 year gap between what the US military develops and what we find out about.

[black belt aj]

Thinking of a new race such as aliens is exciting and I wish I could believe they exist but I cant. I mean if a creator does exist like a God then why would he create aliens? If aliens do exist then there is no God and then all the religions would kinda fall. So its strange and Big foot and stuff are different stories because they cant be real. But same for ghosts , I believe ghosts exist but once someone dies they go to heaven or hell if a god exists but ghosts are weird. hard to explain. Some things in this world are hard t understand....

[mcnugget13]

actully ghosts aren't real black belt spirts are ;)

Also you should never say it is not true or false intill you have seen it, I have seed some pretty weird crap here like I was with one of my friends at his house and every night there always seems to be a larger star in the sky when around 11:00 the star moved down towards the moutions where me and my friend think Area 51 is loacted but once it came out of sight a green flash came behind the moutions so bealive what you want but you can not say it is true of false intill it is seen as I have

[Trialliar]

There's things that government wants to keep a secret, that's obvious, but I doubt there's aliens in Roswell.
The best way to keep that secret is with a distraction, if all of the conspiracy theorist are busy trying to find out what's in Area51 they aren't focusing much attention elsewhere.

[Ryan44]

Thinking of a new race such as aliens is exciting and I wish I could believe they exist but I cant. I mean if a creator does exist like a God then why would he create aliens? If aliens do exist then there is no God and then all the religions would kinda fall. So its strange and Big foot and stuff are different stories because they cant be real. But same for ghosts , I believe ghosts exist but once someone dies they go to heaven or hell if a god exists but ghosts are weird. hard to explain. Some things in this world are hard t understand....


I liked your post, black belt. I think what you said was interesting: "If aliens exist, then God doesn't." In addition, "If both God and aliens exist, then why did God (in particular the Judeo-Christian God) create aliens too? I guess based on my Christian beliefs I can't logically belief in aliens without abandoning my Christianity. The belief in God and ghosts/spirits, however, seems compatible.

A lot in life's mysterious, but I'm sure that the truth of these things is attainable. These things are interesting to think about, especially if we can find answers to them.

* * *

I believe this. apparantly there is about a 10 year gap between what the US military develops and what we find out about.

SD,

Your point was good too; what you said is plausible. Recall the B2 bomber and other stealth fighter/bomber projects.

* * *
actully ghosts aren't real black belt spirts are ;)

Also you should never say it is not true or false intill you have seen it, I have seed some pretty weird crap here like I was with one of my friends at his house and every night there always seems to be a larger star in the sky when around 11:00 the star moved down towards the moutions where me and my friend think Area 51 is loacted but once it came out of sight a green flash came behind the moutions so bealive what you want but you can not say it is true of false intill it is seen as I have



Mcnugget,

You’re a friend of mine, so I’ll go easy on you.

I agree that one should withhold judgment on a matter until the evidence, for and against it, has been examined.

You say that you shouldn’t state something is true or false unless you have seen it. However, if UFO’s don’t exist, what is there to see? Only if they exist can you see them, and if there are plausible explanations for all the strange sights in the sky, then mere sightings don’t by themselves prove the existence of UFO’s.

As for your story, I’m sorry, but it remains merely hearsay until it can be confirmed. Any number of people can claim to have seen anything strange in the sky -- and even to have been abducted by aliens.

[Again, I don’t mean to insult you, MC.]

* * *

There's things that government wants to keep a secret, that's obvious, but I doubt there's aliens in Roswell.
The best way to keep that secret is with a distraction, if all of the conspiracy theorist are busy trying to find out what's in Area51 they aren't focusing much attention elsewhere.



Trialliar,

You’re right; the government perhaps does keep certain things from us, although they are more likely to be mundane, worldly matters rather than cover-ups of aliens and other conspiracies (9-11 and JFK).

[Leighton Darko]

Hmm...
To be honest, I've attempted to keep out of the way of any Area 51 talk -- I guess because I'm not too sure of my own beliefs -- but this topic's got me curious.
Yes, I do believe something is going on in Area 51.
No, I do not believe it is appealing to the extraterrestrial nature.
Despite having lived in the USA for all of my (short) life, I know little about Area 51, and as such, I can't make many assumptions or conclusions... but...
I've seen some pretty crazy things that certainly aren't of this world; whether others believe me or not doesn't matter, as I've seen it and experienced it first hand.
I believe that humans would be trivially ignorant to think that we are the only "intelligent" species in the galaxy. We haven't even covered a small portion of the universe; it would be impossible to entirely rule out extraterrestrial beliefs.
Whether or not the aliens are the fantasy type you see in movies such as War of the Worlds and Signs or whether they're not, doesn't matter.
Anyway... that aside...
Thinking of a new race such as aliens is exciting and I wish I could believe they exist but I cant. I mean if a creator does exist like a God then why would he create aliens? If aliens do exist then there is no God and then all the religions would kinda fall. So its strange and Big foot and stuff are different stories because they cant be real. But same for ghosts , I believe ghosts exist but once someone dies they go to heaven or hell if a god exists but ghosts are weird. hard to explain. Some things in this world are hard t understand....
I'm not sure if I'm entirely correct to be addressing this post, as I'm not even sure of my own religious beliefs, but...
I don't think it's fair to rule out that a god couldn't have created extraterrestrials.
I also don't think it's fair to say that if there's aliens, there can't be a god, and vice versa.
I mean, I'm not educated in Christianity, so please bear with me in my religious ignorance... but it doesn't seem right to choose between the two ultimatums of aliens or god.
Your post does bring up interesting points, however...
Life has many mysteries. Humans will never be able to unravel them all, no matter how advanced or intelligent we become.

[Spartan]

actully ghosts aren't real black belt spirts are ;)

Also you should never say it is not true or false intill you have seen it, I have seed some pretty weird crap here like I was with one of my friends at his house and every night there always seems to be a larger star in the sky when around 11:00 the star moved down towards the moutions where me and my friend think Area 51 is loacted but once it came out of sight a green flash came behind the moutions so bealive what you want but you can not say it is true of false intill it is seen as I have


Were you looking at what you thought was Area 51 at the time you noticed this or before then thought it was Area 51. I have a theory that if someone really wants to see something and looks hard enough than they will see it.

But really I wasn't there so what do I know? I personally don't believe in aliens.

[Ryan44]

Hmm...
To be honest, I've attempted to keep out of the way of any Area 51 talk -- I guess because I'm not too sure of my own beliefs -- but this topic's got me curious.
Yes, I do believe something is going on in Area 51.
No, I do not believe it is appealing to the extraterrestrial nature.
Despite having lived in the USA for all of my (short) life, I know little about Area 51, and as such, I can't make many assumptions or conclusions... but...
I've seen some pretty crazy things that certainly aren't of this world; whether others believe me or not doesn't matter, as I've seen it and experienced it first hand.
I believe that humans would be trivially ignorant to think that we are the only "intelligent" species in the galaxy. We haven't even covered a small portion of the universe; it would be impossible to entirely rule out extraterrestrial beliefs.
Whether or not the aliens are the fantasy type you see in movies such as War of the Worlds and Signs or whether they're not, doesn't matter.
Anyway... that aside...

I'm not sure if I'm entirely correct to be addressing this post, as I'm not even sure of my own religious beliefs, but...
I don't think it's fair to rule out that a god couldn't have created extraterrestrials.
I also don't think it's fair to say that if there's aliens, there can't be a god, and vice versa.
I mean, I'm not educated in Christianity, so please bear with me in my religious ignorance... but it doesn't seem right to choose between the two ultimatums of aliens or god.
Your post does bring up interesting points, however...
Life has many mysteries. Humans will never be able to unravel them all, no matter how advanced or intelligent we become.

Leighton,

I’ll tackle some of your thoughts in systemic form.

First, I’ve tried to keep off this debate too, but mostly because I don’t consider it serious. I think people should worry about other, more important things than something that’s yet to be proven.

Second, you’re right -- there certainly is something going on in Area 51, but that something is likely military, not extraterrestrial.

Third, you claim to have seen strange things and that whether people believe you is not important. But it is. If one claims to have seen any number of strange things, and that this belief is not to be tested by logic and evidence (and that the conclusions that result are unimportant), then it’s conceivable that people can believe in anything. People can believe they’ve seen fairies in their garden, and that they can likewise claim that it doesn’t matter what others think: the important thing is that they experienced it. But where’s the proof?

Fourth, that we are the only “intelligent” beings in the galaxy is hard to prove empirically without scouring the entire universe. I guess in a sense it’s more of an a priori argument (http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/apriori.htm) (pure reason) than an a posteriori argument (pure observation). Therefore, people can offer good arguments for both why extraterrestrial life can and cannot exist, but cannot provide evidence for either due to limited knowledge of the universe. If one relies purely on evidence for this question, then disappointment is likely.

Lastly, the matter of God and aliens depends on some qualifications. It’s logically conceivable that a God could have created both humans and aliens. However, it is not consistent to argue that the God of Christianity, Judaism, or Islam also created aliens because that would violate revelation. If a God that created both humans and aliens does exist, He cannot be the god of the Old Testament.

Of course, it’s also logically conceivable that God doesn’t exist and that both humans and aliens came about randomly.

[Spartan]

One point I made to my little brother when he was afraid of aliens was that, if God DID make aliens they wouldn't be out to kill us all like in so many Sci-Fi movies and games. Of course we are Christians so it you're not than you have to figure on your own, I guess.

[Ryan44]

One point I made to my little brother when he was afraid of aliens was that, if God DID make aliens they wouldn't be out to kill us all like in so many Sci-Fi movies and games. Of course we are Christians so it you're not than you have to figure on your own, I guess.


I'd say it depends on whether they also have Original Sin (and the ability to travel many parsecs to get here).

[An Insane Guy]

One point I made to my little brother when he was afraid of aliens was that, if God DID make aliens they wouldn't be out to kill us all like in so many Sci-Fi movies and games. Of course we are Christians so it you're not than you have to figure on your own, I guess.

But, if we kill eachother, why wouldn't unknown life forms kill us? I could gurantee you if they where real and they did come, we would have the army all over them.

[Senses Fail]

Okay im not no scientist but I figure their might be 3 ways we could look at this. 1: If aliens exist and god doesnt then maybe aliens have created us in some weird way and placed us on Earth and the ufos we see are them checking up on us. 2: God exists and aliens dont in which the ufos weve seen are actually area 51's doing 3:God doesnt exist and aliens dont exist

Again im not saying that what I think is true just my opinion. Im still unsure of myself as my opinion could be way off and im suspecting it is.

[schedar]

I've been in Rachel, Nevada. The people there are nice and there are a lot of references to extraterrestrial life there.

Parking signs and hotels :D

[Ryan44]

Okay im not no scientist but I figure their might be 3 ways we could look at this. 1: If aliens exist and god doesnt then maybe aliens have created us in some weird way and placed us on Earth and the ufos we see are them checking up on us. 2: God exists and aliens dont in which the ufos weve seen are actually area 51's doing 3:God doesnt exist and aliens dont exist

Again im not saying that what I think is true just my opinion. Im still unsure of myself as my opinion could be way off and im suspecting it is.

I have no problem with the three scenarios given, Senses Fail. I'm not a scientist myself, but I try to use the scientific way of thinking. One of these three has to be true, and our jobs are to find out which one.

I'm not saying that one should either reject or accept the UFO and alien question on its face. I'm just asking people to try to think it through it before reaching a conclusion.

Well, wherever this question goes, you can still pat yourself on the back and say you created quite an interesting and, so far, respectful discussion.

[Leighton Darko]

Third, you claim to have seen strange things and that whether people believe you is not important. But it is. If one claims to have seen any number of strange things, and that this belief is not to be tested by logic and evidence (and that the conclusions that result are unimportant), then it’s conceivable that people can believe in anything. People can believe they’ve seen fairies in their garden, and that they can likewise claim that it doesn’t matter what others think: the important thing is that they experienced it. But where’s the proof?

Fourth, that we are the only “intelligent” beings in the galaxy is hard to prove empirically without scouring the entire universe. I guess in a sense it’s more of an a priori argument (http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/apriori.htm) (pure reason) than an a posteriori argument (pure observation). Therefore, people can offer good arguments for both why extraterrestrial life can and cannot exist, but cannot provide evidence for either due to limited knowledge of the universe. If one relies purely on evidence for this question, then disappointment is likely.

Lastly, the matter of God and aliens depends on some qualifications. It’s logically conceivable that a God could have created both humans and aliens. However, it is not consistent to argue that the God of Christianity, Judaism, or Islam also created aliens because that would violate revelation. If a God that created both humans and aliens does exist, He cannot be the god of the Old Testament.

Of course, it’s also logically conceivable that God doesn’t exist and that both humans and aliens came about randomly.
Truth be told, I'm very glad you addressed my post, as your ideals and points fascinate me. =]
Starting from your third point, and going down;
[3] You're entirely correct in your point. But humans are highly opinionated creatures; I believe our proof for our thoughts lies in our own interpretations of things.
[4] Again, you're correct.
[5] As I mentioned before, I'm not thoroughly educated on religions near Christianity, so I guess I can't entirely reply to this point...

Okay im not no scientist but I figure their might be 3 ways we could look at this. 1: If aliens exist and god doesnt then maybe aliens have created us in some weird way and placed us on Earth and the ufos we see are them checking up on us. 2: God exists and aliens dont in which the ufos weve seen are actually area 51's doing 3:God doesnt exist and aliens dont exist
Why have only three ways to look at it?
By all accounts, the more ways to look at the subject, the more diverse our beliefs, resulting in the more interesting the conversation.. no? <3
Your three ways to look at it are quite intriguing, however...

[Spartan]

So wait, Sense Fail, is that IF aliens exist or is that your solid belief?

[An Insane Guy]

So wait, Sense Fail, is that IF aliens exist or is that your solid belief?

Check the very first sentence ;)

[Spartan]

Ohhhhhhhhh, :oops:

[Senses Fail]

All of its just my opinion. Sorry for the confusion :D